Canada Day with the Audi boyz

[johnmdanskin]

Originally Posted by Lee

.., I would suggest you repeat the same lines, but 10 to 12 secondes faster per lap. ... Which requires to brake as hard and as late as possible, even carrying some residual braking into the corner .

I'm still driving the front tires around the track. The car won't go much faster and stay on the track unless I do something more aggressive to rotate the car. Mayby it's time to work on my scandanavian flick. Last year with toe-out in the rear I didn't feel limited by the front tires, but the car was hard to drive. I'm getting rid of most of the camber in the back. Hoping that will do it. I had the swaybar all the way tight at cbogie, but that wasn't enough.

I am trailbraking in most corners, but not really using it for more rotation.

Funny, I was turning in earlier for the beak, but my IC-mentor told me to be more patient.

Maybe the bmw will be less understeery.

Thanks for the comments Lee. I couldn't believe how fast you were going on street tires. Amazing.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by johnmdanskin

Funny, I was turning in earlier for the beak, but my IC-mentor told me to be more patient.

The faster line requires to turn-in earlier, hit the apex earlier, and back on the gaz earlier. It is way faster, in that section alone I could gain 3 car length, easy. But it might not be the safer HPDE line...

BTW Forget now having all four wheels firmly planted. When one wants to go fast, it often happens on 3 wheels

[Andrei]

Earlier apex is riskier but gets you around the corner faster if done right. I also found that for very tight corners wide lines simply make you drive a longer distance. As you are going very slow you lose a ton of time even if your speed is slightly higher due to the more "correct" line.

And Lee is right. Some sliding is needed to get the best lap time.
There is a quote from Mario Andretti: "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

[johnmdanskin]

Originally Posted by Andrei

....
And Lee is right. Some sliding is needed to get the best lap time.
...

If the car just understeers, going faster just sends you off the track. If I can get it neutral, through technique or mechanical adjustment, then we're back into a mode where I can imagine 10 more seconds available.

I'm not sure how much more I'm going to be tracking this car, but if adjusting the rear camber back to -1 doesn't do it, and I'm still tracking the car, I'm putting the rear toe-out back. It didn't go straight very well with the toe-out, but it sure turned.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by johnmdanskin

If the car just understeers, going faster just sends you off the track. If I can get it neutral, through technique or mechanical adjustment, then we're back into a mode where I can imagine 10 more seconds available.

I'm not sure how much more I'm going to be tracking this car, but if adjusting the rear camber back to -1 doesn't do it, and I'm still tracking the car, I'm putting the rear toe-out back. It didn't go straight very well with the toe-out, but it sure turned.

What are the pyrometer readings and hot pressures?

[johnmdanskin]

Originally Posted by Phil

What are the pyrometer readings and hot pressures?

I don't have pyro readings. Once the camber seemed to be right, pyro readings weren't actionable, at least not for me.

I've been adjusting hot pressure to about 38psi, street tires or ra1s. The video was on the michelin ps2 streets. From wear, the camber in back is good. I'd be dialing it back out to reduce traction.

[SilverViper]

Originally Posted by Phil

OK, Its wet. But this is the second FSAQ video I've seen recently and I can't beleive the poor judgment and skill of some of the competitors.

I'm glad I've stayed away from racing with them.

Phil

Well Phil, the only incident in the Xtreme Touring race involved Jean-Marc Alcaraz who bumped Charles Hammer. I do not think one can argue that Alcaraz is not a good driver.

Regarding the Echo Cup race, I have to agree that some competitors seem a litlle bit agressive but in "monotype" racing, it looks like it is now part of the game. They had the same problem in the Michelin Challenge series.

By the way, ICAR in the wet can be really slippery.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by johnmdanskin

I don't have pyro readings. Once the camber seemed to be right, pyro readings weren't actionable, at least not for me.

I've been adjusting hot pressure to about 38psi, street tires or ra1s. The video was on the michelin ps2 streets. From wear, the camber in back is good. I'd be dialing it back out to reduce traction.

Spend $150 on a probe-type pyrometer. And welcome to how to set up your car to race.

Phil

[johnmdanskin]

Originally Posted by Phil

Spend $150 on a probe-type pyrometer. And welcome to how to set up your car to race.

Phil

I have one. I just don't know what to do with it once my pressure and camber seem about right. I'd appreciate any tips.

Correct pyrometer camber in back doesn't look to be correct front/rear balance camber, unless I can use something else to adjust relative traction. I did try sway bar all the way tight. I haven't tried 50psi in back. I will be back to -1 degree of camber in back for lcmt thursday.

I can tell that I don't seem to be wearing out my rear tires anymore.

My mechanic actually had a heart attack (survived, outlook is good) and it looks like I'll be driving the mini again next week. His minions have been able to adjust my camber, so we'll see how that goes.

[Andrei]

The pyrometer is useful not just for camber settings. The balance of front to back temperatures is important, too. If your rears are cooler than fronts they are not working as hard and there is available traction left out there. How to get that to balance is something I haven't studied much, yet.

[blacksheep]

John, I'd say adding rear toe in small increments will get you the desired rotation

[Emre]

Originally Posted by blacksheep

John, I'd say adding rear toe in small increments will get you the desired rotation

+1

I've found that some rear toe-out is definitely the secret ingredient for a FWD or AWD car. Obviously, a heavy rear swaybar helps as well.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by Lee

On a front wheel drive, it is normal that front tires get hotter as they do all the work. They steer, and they also brake more (more weight in the front) and they pull the car. The rear whels are the lazy wheels. All they have to do is to follow and brake a bit.

Whether front or rear or all wheel drive, you have four contact patches. The best setup uses them all equally.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by Lee

One must use the most contact patch, that's for sure, but it doesn't mean that all tires will do the same work, and therefore might not reach the same temps. They might get the same hot pressures, but most liely that's because they started at different cold pressures, and the pessures will rise differently depending on how stressed the tires are.

Even on well balanced e30 M3, it is very common to stat with rear cold pressures being 12 to 15% higher, but equal when hot.

Same hot pressures and similar temps (inner-outer; left-right; and front-rear) mean a balanced car and equal use of each corner's contact patch.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Emre

+1

I've found that some rear toe-out is definitely the secret ingredient for a FWD or AWD car. Obviously, a heavy rear swaybar helps as well.

Yeah but nothing crazy because then it becomes oversteer city.. A massive rear sway bar and a lot of rear toe is just asking to spin out.

I am running a 26mm rear bar on my Neon which I thought was causing the oversteer. However it was the 2 degrees of rear toe out that was casing me problems. Now I am at 1 degree(-1.25 rear camber) toe out and the car isn't deadly to drive anymore. John and I spoke about this since he had the exact same problem when he was running massive amounts of rear toe out..

[johnmdanskin]

Originally Posted by Gregster

Yeah but nothing crazy because then it becomes oversteer city..

I think oversteer city and fast are synonymous with fwd cars. Still, I'm going to inch up on oversteer slowly.

To phil's point that you have 4 patches and you want to use them, maybe lots of rear camber AND rear toe out is the right thing. The rear toe out makes the back of the car active. The camber gives it grip at speed.

The real problem I had with rear toe-out was in straight lines. I could barely remove a hand from the wheel to shift in a straight line, and definitely not at the top of the esses at WGI. It also wasn't stable braking in a straight line (for instance coming into the bus-stop at WGI). Rear camber wouldn't fix this. I remember having 1/8" of rear toe out. Maybe I could get away with 1/16".

We are searching in a high dimensional space.

I've been looking and looking for mini race setups without success. There are lots of posts in forums where someone asks, but I haven't found any useful replies.

[Emre]

Originally Posted by Gregster

A massive rear sway bar and a lot of rear toe is just asking to spin out.

That's why I said "some" toe-out was needed...not a "massive" amount Like anything else, moderation is key.

Originally Posted by Gregster

However it was the 2 degrees of rear toe out that was casing me problems.

Dude, 2 degrees of rear toe out is ridiculous

Originally Posted by Gregster

Now I am at 1 degree (-1.25 rear camber) toe out and the car isn't deadly to drive anymore.

Even 1 degree is a lot. That's about as far as you can go before the car becomes undrivable.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by Lee

You are 100% correct if the car has 50/50 weight distribution, accelerates as much as its decelerates and turns left and right equally. Then all four wheels will produce the same work, have same friction, will have same temps. Except that very few cars are balanced and use equally every corner. A car with rear engine will ot use its wheels the same way as a front wheel drive vehicule. Therefore temps will differ front to back, and left side to right side depending on tracks.

You are missing the point.

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Emre

That's why I said "some" toe-out was needed...not a "massive" amount Like anything else, moderation is key.

Dude, 2 degrees of rear toe out is ridiculous

Even 1 degree is a lot. That's about as far as you can go before the car becomes undrivable.

Yeah it was either 1.5 or 2. I remember it was alot in the rear according to the "Neon Racing Handbook"

It could make sense if you like to drive scared the entire time or run very very very wide tires. I only have 205s on the car, maybe some 225s would be cool to have one day

[johnmdanskin]

Originally Posted by Gregster

Yeah it was either 1.5 or 2. I remember it was alot in the rear according to the "Neon Racing Handbook"

It could make sense if you like to drive scared the entire time or run very very very wide tires. I only have 205s on the car, maybe some 225s would be cool to have one day

tried to PM greg.

1. Gregster has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space.

How do I convert toe in inches to degrees? Equivalently, where is toe in inches measured exactly?